Analog.com Analog Dialogue Wiki 简体中文
EngineerZone
EngineerZone
  • Log In
  • Site
  • Search
  • User
  • Support

    Popular Forums

    • RF and Microwave
    • Power Management
    • Video
    • FPGA Reference Designs
    • Precision ADCs
    • Linux Software Drivers
    • SigmaDSP Processors & SigmaStudio Dev. Tool

    Product Forums

    • A2B
    • Amplifiers
    • Analog Microcontrollers
    • Clock and Timing
    • Data Converters
    • Direct Digital Synthesis (DDS)
    • Energy Monitoring and Metering
    • Interface and Isolation
    • MEMS Inertial Sensors
    • Processors and DSP
    • Switches/Multiplexers
    • Temperature Sensors
    • Voltage References
    View All

    Application Forums

    • Audio
    • Automated Test Equipment (ATE)
    • Condition-Based Monitoring
    • Depth, Perception & Ranging Technologies
    • Embedded Vision Sensing Library
    • Motor Control Hardware Platforms
    • Optical Sensing
    • Precision Technology Signal Chains Library
    • Video
    • Wireless Sensor Networks Reference Library

    Design Center Forums

    • ACE Evaluation Software
    • ADEF System Platforms
    • Design Tools and Calculators
    • FPGA Reference Designs
    • Linux Software Drivers
    • Microcontroller no-OS Drivers
    • Reference Designs
    • Signal Chain Power (SCP)
    • Software Interface Tools
    • System Demonstration Platform (SDP) Support
  • Learn

    Highlighted Webinar

    Multidimensional Simulations of Beamformers and other RF Integrated Circuits in Keysight SystemVue

    Recent Discussions

    • Issue running built programs on Pluto
    • Activity: Simple Op Amps, For ADALM1000 Fig. 1.3 Buffering example
    • ADALM-PLUTO [NETWORK] vs [USB_ETHERNET]
    • Using buffer size different from 2**n
    • ADALM1000 Pixelpulse feature Source Voltage / Measure Current explanation

    Places

    • ADI Education Home
    • ADI Education China
    • ADI Education India
    • ADI Education Philippines
    • StudentZone (Analog Dialogue)
    • Virtual Classroom

    Latest Webinars

    • Multidimensional Simulations of Beamformers and other RF Integrated Circuits in Keysight SystemVue
    • Improve Smart Building Energy Efficiency with Industrial Ethernet Controlled Air Conditioning (HVAC) Systems
    • Sustainable Motion Control Solutions for High Performance Servo Drives
    • Audio Design Solutions for Augmented and Virtual Reality (AR/VR) Glasses
    • Robust Industrial Motor Encoder Signal Chain Solutions
    View All Webinars
  • Community Hub

    Challenge Yourself!

      KCC's Quizzes: AQQ 236 about strange marking on airplane engines
    View All

    Places

    • Community Help
    • Logic Lounge

    Resources

    • EZ Code of Conduct
    • Getting Started Guide
    • ADI: Words Matter
    • Community Help Videos
    View All
  • Blogs

    Highlighted Blogs

    Crawl, Walk, And Run - The Journey To Create The Phaser

     

    Hardware Holds The Key To Making Industrial Systems IEC 62443 Compliant

    Latest Blogs

    • Behind the Scenes of DIYRadio Blogs: An Introduction
    • Empowering Surveillance Cameras To Capture A Scene Without Being Heard
    • Mastering The Metrics Makes Specifying Encoders Simpler
    • Understanding Secret Key Cryptography Without Formulas
    • 3 Reasons Why IO-Link is Changing Smart Factory Decision Making
    Read All Blogs

    ADI Blogs

    • EZ Spotlight
    • The Engineering Mind
  • Partners

    Electronic Design Services - PartnerZone

    • Boston Engineering
    • Calian, Advanced Technologies
    • Colorado Engineering Inc. (DBA CAES AT&E)
    • Clockworks Signal Processing
    • Epiq Solutions
    • Fidus
    • PalmSens
    • Richardson RFPD
    • Tri-Star Design, Inc.
    • VadaTech
    • Vanteon
    • X-Microwave
    View All
ADIsimPE Library
  • Power Management
ADIsimPE Library
Documents AD633 noise SImetrix model doesn't match datasheet
  • Members
  • Tags
  • More
  • Cancel
  • Documents
  • 2015080- Anveshan 2014
  • AD539 Spice model
  • AD633 noise SImetrix model doesn't match datasheet
  • AD633 using ADIsimPE
  • AD8000 model
  • AD8227 does not work well on LTSpice
  • AD8336 spice model is not working
  • AD8336 with ADISimPE
  • AD8338 in PSPice
  • ADA2200 Encrypted Model
  • ADA2200 Spice Model
  • ADA4941-1 .cir
  • ADIsimPE 8.0 does not install - install shield stops at 20% and then does not respond.
  • ADIsimPE Design Tool model for ADP3050
  • ADIsimPE fails to update
  • ADIsimPE Full license version
  • ADIsimPE How do I check the number of node
  • ADIsimPE How do I define the correct symbol?
  • ADIsimPE How to use diffrential amp?
  • ADIsimPE License Issues
  • ADIsimPE Sallen key low pass filter Bode plot
  • ADIsimPE schematic from UG-241
  • ADIsimPE support Community
  • ADP2384 Design Tool vs ADISimPE results
  • ADP7142 Spice Model
  • ADP7183 Adjustable Voltage
  • AMP Noise Analysis
  • An error message appeared and said " *** ERROR *** The circuit is too large to simulate with this version. Too many analog nodes" .
  • Analogous mechaniocal electrical system- LTSPICE
  • Announcing the release of ADIsimPE 8.0
  • Bode plot in SimPE
  • Can an isolated DC/DC converter be created in ADIsimPower?
  • Can I import PSPICE models into ADIsimPE?
  • can not open model
  • Can you provide the non-linear model for HMC441LM1 power amplifier. I noticed that it is available in ADISimRF, but I wanted to incorporate it in my ADS simulations.
  • Can't find Comparator AD790 in ADIsimPE Library
  • Can't update ADIsimPE...?
  • CN0337 in ADIsimPE
  • Components not found in the new 7.20 ADIsimPE version
  • Could I have AD8250 model file?
  • Creating Spice model from time-domain oscilloscope data
  • DDS driven PLL ADIsimpll
  • different result's between ADIsimPE and Diff Amp Calculator!!!
  • encrypted models for amplifiers
  • Encrypted SPICE AD797 and AD734
  • excel 2007 crashing
  • high speed pulses with AD8009an in ADIsimPE
  • HMC477 and HMC733 library
  • HMC807 EVB schematic bug
  • How can to fix netlist after changing symbol pin order?
  • How do i link the Anlog Devices supplied AD630.cir file into my schematic/simulation using ADIsimPE
  • how to add LT6011 spice model to ADIsimPE?
  • How to add part to the library folder of ADIsimPE simulator?
  • How to avoid erasing old curves
  • How to emulate T/I design bench?
  • How to export ASCII text of simulated curve
  • How to simulate PD signal?
  • How to simulate signal?
  • How to use ADIsimPower with ADisimPE integration
  • I need to get 5V DC from an analogue telephone line without looping the line.
  • I replaced a single opamp with a ADA4700. This resulted in an*** ERROR *** The circuit is too large to simulate with this version. Too many analog nodes. Why?
  • I want to simulate with AD9833. For that i need SPICE model (library file) of AD9833. So please let me know where do I get it or is there any simulation software for that?. Thank you
  • I want to simulate with ADR3540.
  • In trouble simulating IN-AMP
  • Installed ADIsimPI right now and at first start it says that it only have 14 days remaining
  • Is it possible to simulate a battery in ADIsimPE?
  • Is there a license expiration period for ADIsimPE ???
  • Is there a LT3032 model available for ADIsimPE ?
  • Is there a way to integrate and simulate ADP5090 Model(SIMPLIS) and AD8210(SiMetrix) into a single circuit?
  • Is there a way to simulate the ADuM2250 in ADIsimPE ? It only appears to have an IBIS model.
  • Is there any difference between ADIsimPE and Pspice model?
  • Is there any way to fully simulate the ADP5054 with Buck 1 and Buck 2 in parallel?
  • Linear regulator models?
  • looking for some photo diode model
  • NEW DSP
  • Noise analysis
  • Noise analysis ADIsimPE
  • Noise analysis of ADIsimPE
  • Phase angle measurement
  • problem simulating AD736 in ADIsimPE
  • Program expired
  • PSpice model
  • Quick Start user Guide - UG706
  • Regarding ADP5301
  • Simulate with an AMP03, Importing Models
  • Simulation using AD8336, AD736 and AD8551 spice models in Pspice
  • Solution for ADIsimPE Update Error
  • Too many analog nodes in ADISIMPE Simulation
  • troubles with SPICE models of AD8033 and AD8065
  • Use LTspice .sub model in ADIsimPE
  • waht analog devices equpment i can apply for design capacitive humidity sensor with 0..10V analog output signal
  • What is ADIsimPE?
  • When I run efficiency on simulator...
  • Where can I post LTSpice questions?
  • Where do I find an ADIsimPE tutorial

AD633 noise SImetrix model doesn't match datasheet

Original Question: AD633 noise SImetrix model doesn't match datasheet by dhhsieh

Hi everyone, I am trying to do a noise simulation of a circuit using the AD633 low-cost analog multiplier. As a first check on my results, I have wired the multiplier in ADIsimPE (Simetrix) as in the attached file. When I run a noise simulation I get a flat noise spectrum of about 200nV/rtHz. However, the datasheet (also attached) shows a flat spectrum of 800nV/rtHz. I am wondering why this is so, since I have been able to get SImetrix models of op amps such as the AD797 and AD822 to approximately match their datasheet noise spectrums. Either 1) the SPICE model is out of date, 2) I didn't do the simulation right, or 3) the difference in noise spectrums isn't a big deal. Please let me know as soon as possible, thank you in advance for your support.

8231.attachments.zip

Verified Answer: RE: AD633 noise SImetrix model doesn't match datasheet by jstaley

Hi Daniel,

You are correct, the noise wasn't included in the AD835 SPICE model. I haven't delved into the subject but multiplier noise is unique in character, and functionally dissimilar to noise in a typical op-amp. I once spoke to Barry Gilbert (designer of our multipliers and many VGA products and inventor of the Gilbert Cell) about the topic, enough to know this is an unstudied opportunity but haven't personally followed up on it.

I don't recall anyone asking about it, and we do provide whatever measurements you see in the data sheet. You noticed that the published noise is higher, and it actually is. If you would like to know why you could try to Google the topic. After all this time someone might have dug into the subject, or you might contact Barry himself.

Multipliers are a precursor to mixers and VGAs and people still use them in many applications, we sell a lot of them. However we also offer VGAs and mixers with technologies not available back when the '600 and '800 series of products were developed so this is where the markets have led.

If it were me I'd probably look for a way to add a noise generator to a SPICE model and just use the data provided in the ds as a source for the model. It's usually pretty accurate.

Sorry I couldn't be of more assistance.

Jim


Suggested Answer: RE: AD633 noise SImetrix model doesn't match datasheet by jstaley

Hello dhhsieh,

Thanks for the EZ question.

Years ago the SPICE modelers did not include noise in their models, the AD633 would have been of that vintage.

Best regards,

JS


Question: RE: AD633 noise SImetrix model doesn't match datasheet by dhhsieh

Hi Jstaley, 

That helps a lot. I have two follow up questions.

1) Is the AD835 also an model without spice noise? I took the model from the ADI website at this link. 

2) If the AD835 is also too old to be modelled, could you recommend a low-noise analog multiplier which does have spice noise modelled?

Sincerely,

Daniel


Question: RE: AD633 noise SImetrix model doesn't match datasheet by dhhsieh

Hi Jstaley, 

Thanks.

I am trying to square an analog signal, and I think an analog multiplier is the right tool for the job, I don't know what a mixer or VGA (variable gain amplifier) do very well. 
Are the AD534 or AD734 better for the job, versus the 600s or 800s series as you said in your previous reply?

Is there a SPICE model for the AD534? I only see one for the 734. 

Daniel


Question: RE: AD633 noise SImetrix model doesn't match datasheet by jstaley

Hi Daniel,

Yes the analog multipliers really do multiply. Once I had an assignment with the same requirement. I was quite pleased and surprised to learn about these types of devices that provide a result with no latency, as one would experience with a digital solution. Of course there is room in the world for both types of technology.

What is the nature of the signals you need to multiply?

Jim


Question: RE: AD633 noise SImetrix model doesn't match datasheet by dhhsieh

Dear Jim, sorry for the late reply.

I need to multiply noise with itself, which has amplitude in the microvolt range, I do not know precisely. Thermal noise itself is my signal of interest.

Perhaps an analog multiplier like AD734 is not the right tool for the job, because of its inherent noise levels which are likely the same magnitude or larger than the thermal noise, and because the noise would couple to the output. Also, it might not work because multiplying a really small signal by itself would just produce an even smaller signal which might have trouble being measured. 

Please let me know if you have any comments or questions.

Daniel


Question: RE: AD633 noise SImetrix model doesn't match datasheet by jstaley

Hi Daniel,

That's a really interesting challenge. Yes a small number squared is an even smaller number but what happens if the number is made larger, then scaled? I don't have the answer but you might want to consider taking an indirect path to arrive at a reasonable solution.

Best regards,

Jim


Question: RE: AD633 noise SImetrix model doesn't match datasheet by dhhsieh

Dear Harry, 

Good point. Autocorrelation (a noise or signal squared) is not exactly what I want, but it will do. In the current circuit design I am actually trying to multiply together the noise output from two separate but identical lines of amplification, so that the multiplier output will eliminate the noise of the amplifier chains themselves. This is called cross-correlation and it is done in the literature and I am going to try it, though I don't know how hard it will be.

To clarify, I think two noises or signals are 'independent' or not correlated if the average voltage of their instantaneous product in the time domain is zero. 

Here is a paper I have read which talks about cross-correlation and using a multiplier.

White, D. R., Galleano, R., Actis, a, Brixy, H., Groot, M. De, Dubbeldam, J., … Gallop, J. C. (2003). The status of Johnson noise thermometry. Metrologia, 33(4), 325–335. http://doi.org/10.1088/0026-1394/33/4/6

Sincerely,

Daniel

  • Share
  • History
  • More
  • Cancel
Related
Recommended
Social
Quick Links
  • About ADI
  • ADI Signals+
  • Analog Dialogue
  • Careers
  • Contact us
  • Investor Relations
  • News Room
  • Quality & Reliability
  • Sales & Distribution
  • Incubators
Languages
  • English
  • 简体中文
  • 日本語
Newsletter

Interested in the latest news and articles about ADI products, design tools, training and events? Subscribe today!

Sign Up
Analog Logo
©1995 - 2023 Analog Devices, Inc. All Rights Reserved
沪ICP备09046653号-1
  • Sitemap
  • Legal
  • Privacy & Security
  • Privacy Settings
EngineerZone Uses cookies to ensure you get the best experience in our community. For more information on cookies, please read our Privacy & Security Statement.